When I was in graduate school taking my thesis seminar, class size was limited to
15 students. The rational was the idea that effective learning is done with small class sizes. If that logic is valid for graduate students, then surely that should apply to younger students. David Banks comment that parents are not bothered with overcrowding classrooms is absurd.
I teach language, and I'm big on community and interaction. I'm good with 15-20, or maybe even 25. At 34, I have to spend a lot of energy and time making sure kids can learn in my class. I could spend this time teaching if I had a smaller class.
25 should be the absolute max IMO, or 24 because I like even numbers. Of course, that's not enough for a guy who barely spent time in the classroom. I think Banks would do well to model for the rest of us how to properly teach a class of 75 or whatever weird number is in his head.
All rhetorical. Same garbage as Teach for America and the New Teacher project. We just need those magical young teachers who will work a year or two at minimal pay and then return to the real world. They will get all these high need students to perform above grade level at little or no cost. Ah, the ideology of a MAGA billionaire. See no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil. Let us make believe in a simple fantasy world. Horatio Algers lives on. Of course the solution de jour is to now deport these kids. If they no longer exist, there is no class size problem. Fascism at its best (or worse).
It looks like I have misremembered. This is from his DOE bio, but his classroom experience has always been way down his list of experience:
Chancellor Banks started his career as a school safety officer, after which he began his first teaching job at P.S. 167. He served as an assistant principal at P.S. 191 before becoming a founding principal at the Bronx School for Law, Government and Justice and then at The Eagle Academy for Young Men, the first in a network of innovative all-boys public schools in New York City and Newark, N.J. The Chancellor later served as President and CEO of the Eagle Academy Foundation.
Arthur class size was something that time and time again Unity refused to put into its contractual demands - aiding the racist regime of every city government in denying the poor a good education.
I spent a year at Stuyvesant as an ATR. I'm sure some teachers there were amazing but I generally think most were your average teachers who benefitted from having highly skilled students (but also aggressive parents).
Anyways, it's always annoyed me that the most incompetent people in this system tend to fail upwards. My first AP was terrible and went on to terrorize teachers as a principal in Queens. The Federal DOE current guy doesn't strike me as intelligent, especially for butchering a Reagan quote on government. And this Banks character I am less impressed by. I don't expect the Chancellor to let us do what we want, but I would love to just have someone that demonstrates they understand what teaching is like.
I'm sure all teachers benefit from having great students. I know I did. Once, while I was being observed in a beginning ESL class, a young woman from Korea pushed me aside and decided to teach the class herself. It was amazing. The best luck.
That said, I agree a lot of APs are awful. As chapter leader, I had a couple who'd just lie to my face and think I wouldn't notice. My theory is that these people didn't much like teaching, couldn't wait to escape the classroom, and became the very worst leaders of teachers, projecting their own shortcomings onto those of us actually doing the work.
I have no idea how long Banks taught, but I very much doubt he was a role model for any of us. Clearly he's disingenuous and has no regard whatsoever for the kids he ostensibly represents.
Well said! My experience also as a 25 year plus classroom teacher (23 years in public schools). The bigger the class, the less attention for individual kids.
Mr. Banks, please tell me why PS 205 in Bayside Queens with an average class size of 20 has one of the highest test scores on the city? Tell me why my neighborhood schools in Plainview also have super high scores with an average class size of 18? Tell me why the private Latin School where my son teaches in Chicago with 60 grand tuition and class sizes of 19 have almost all their grads go to America’s top colleges? All these kids are diverse but come from families with money to afford areas and schools with small class size and lots of resources.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised by that. Wikipedia said he taught, but didn't specify. They linked to a NYT article by Eliza Shapiro, one of my least favorite education writers. This is a gift article, so you can read it:
Arthur, what is good for high income zip codes codes and rich people's kids is not appropriate for lower income and inner city children. Small class size, a major selling feature of private schools, would never work with middle class or economically disadvantaged children. They simply would not know how to appreciate it because they don't have the proper upbringing, and they and their boring parents are rather churlish, vulgar, and blind to elegance. We must respect class differences and know our place. So what that Eric Adams and Banks may as well be serial killers released from prison who just coincidentally are running a city and school system. If they succeed in saving money, they will be offered lucrative jobs in Washington DC as lobbyists. And maybe one of those children in a class of 35 to 50 will aspire to be a less than a mediocre critical thinker so that he or she too can grow up to be Mayor of NYC. Mayor Adams's brains are about as valuable as spoiled broccoli, dirty white sweat socks, and raw shrimp mixed together and left out in a sealed plastic bag for 7 days on a curb somewhere in the Bronx . . . . But isn't that approximately what it takes to run the 5 boroughs?
Well, there sure are a lot of people who think we should be prepping kids to work in Walmart. There's the entire Walmart family, who pump money undermining public school, and come next January, we could very well have an administration seeking a national voucher program. So I certainly get your point. And it's certainly true that NYC is determined to never, ever have a good mayor.
When I was in graduate school taking my thesis seminar, class size was limited to
15 students. The rational was the idea that effective learning is done with small class sizes. If that logic is valid for graduate students, then surely that should apply to younger students. David Banks comment that parents are not bothered with overcrowding classrooms is absurd.
15 is ideal. My school last year was very small (it's getting merged with another next year) and my max class was 15. Made teaching a lot easier.
I teach language, and I'm big on community and interaction. I'm good with 15-20, or maybe even 25. At 34, I have to spend a lot of energy and time making sure kids can learn in my class. I could spend this time teaching if I had a smaller class.
25 should be the absolute max IMO, or 24 because I like even numbers. Of course, that's not enough for a guy who barely spent time in the classroom. I think Banks would do well to model for the rest of us how to properly teach a class of 75 or whatever weird number is in his head.
Absurd and disingenuous. He couldn't even construct a remotely logical argument.
All rhetorical. Same garbage as Teach for America and the New Teacher project. We just need those magical young teachers who will work a year or two at minimal pay and then return to the real world. They will get all these high need students to perform above grade level at little or no cost. Ah, the ideology of a MAGA billionaire. See no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil. Let us make believe in a simple fantasy world. Horatio Algers lives on. Of course the solution de jour is to now deport these kids. If they no longer exist, there is no class size problem. Fascism at its best (or worse).
Depressing, but I can't argue with that.
It looks like I have misremembered. This is from his DOE bio, but his classroom experience has always been way down his list of experience:
Chancellor Banks started his career as a school safety officer, after which he began his first teaching job at P.S. 167. He served as an assistant principal at P.S. 191 before becoming a founding principal at the Bronx School for Law, Government and Justice and then at The Eagle Academy for Young Men, the first in a network of innovative all-boys public schools in New York City and Newark, N.J. The Chancellor later served as President and CEO of the Eagle Academy Foundation.
So how long did he teach? 5 minutes? Ten?
Arthur class size was something that time and time again Unity refused to put into its contractual demands - aiding the racist regime of every city government in denying the poor a good education.
Absolutely. It's particularly egregious since these folks muster the temerity to lecture us about equity. The hypocrisy is palpable.
Right on the money Arthur
Thank you.
I spent a year at Stuyvesant as an ATR. I'm sure some teachers there were amazing but I generally think most were your average teachers who benefitted from having highly skilled students (but also aggressive parents).
Anyways, it's always annoyed me that the most incompetent people in this system tend to fail upwards. My first AP was terrible and went on to terrorize teachers as a principal in Queens. The Federal DOE current guy doesn't strike me as intelligent, especially for butchering a Reagan quote on government. And this Banks character I am less impressed by. I don't expect the Chancellor to let us do what we want, but I would love to just have someone that demonstrates they understand what teaching is like.
I'm sure all teachers benefit from having great students. I know I did. Once, while I was being observed in a beginning ESL class, a young woman from Korea pushed me aside and decided to teach the class herself. It was amazing. The best luck.
That said, I agree a lot of APs are awful. As chapter leader, I had a couple who'd just lie to my face and think I wouldn't notice. My theory is that these people didn't much like teaching, couldn't wait to escape the classroom, and became the very worst leaders of teachers, projecting their own shortcomings onto those of us actually doing the work.
I have no idea how long Banks taught, but I very much doubt he was a role model for any of us. Clearly he's disingenuous and has no regard whatsoever for the kids he ostensibly represents.
Well said! My experience also as a 25 year plus classroom teacher (23 years in public schools). The bigger the class, the less attention for individual kids.
Absolutely. Thank you!
Mr. Banks, please tell me why PS 205 in Bayside Queens with an average class size of 20 has one of the highest test scores on the city? Tell me why my neighborhood schools in Plainview also have super high scores with an average class size of 18? Tell me why the private Latin School where my son teaches in Chicago with 60 grand tuition and class sizes of 19 have almost all their grads go to America’s top colleges? All these kids are diverse but come from families with money to afford areas and schools with small class size and lots of resources.
Looks like you've answered your own question.
Banks NEVER taught. He was one of those "CEO" principals bought in in the early 2000's.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised by that. Wikipedia said he taught, but didn't specify. They linked to a NYT article by Eliza Shapiro, one of my least favorite education writers. This is a gift article, so you can read it:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/08/nyregion/david-banks-nyc-school-chancellor.html?unlocked_article_code=1.700.xFNX.2kNHHsxcy8y6&smid=url-share
Shapiro writes: "A native New Yorker who has taught in and led several schools in the city..."
No specifics. Maybe he stood in front of a class and talked about how he's "soaring high." The man is an absolute disgrace.
Arthur, what is good for high income zip codes codes and rich people's kids is not appropriate for lower income and inner city children. Small class size, a major selling feature of private schools, would never work with middle class or economically disadvantaged children. They simply would not know how to appreciate it because they don't have the proper upbringing, and they and their boring parents are rather churlish, vulgar, and blind to elegance. We must respect class differences and know our place. So what that Eric Adams and Banks may as well be serial killers released from prison who just coincidentally are running a city and school system. If they succeed in saving money, they will be offered lucrative jobs in Washington DC as lobbyists. And maybe one of those children in a class of 35 to 50 will aspire to be a less than a mediocre critical thinker so that he or she too can grow up to be Mayor of NYC. Mayor Adams's brains are about as valuable as spoiled broccoli, dirty white sweat socks, and raw shrimp mixed together and left out in a sealed plastic bag for 7 days on a curb somewhere in the Bronx . . . . But isn't that approximately what it takes to run the 5 boroughs?
Well, there sure are a lot of people who think we should be prepping kids to work in Walmart. There's the entire Walmart family, who pump money undermining public school, and come next January, we could very well have an administration seeking a national voucher program. So I certainly get your point. And it's certainly true that NYC is determined to never, ever have a good mayor.